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Thread: Crude Tartar Distillation

  1. #1
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    Crude Tartar Distillation

    I attemted to distill crude tartar, as it comes out from the wine barel, and would like to share some results.
    In brief, about 150 grams of tartar were collected and left to dry on a low heat. Then the tartar was put in the distillation flask. At the receiving end, the collection flask was cooled inside ice water bath. A gas burner provided the heat. Soon, a white thick vapor filled the distillation train. It didn't condense easily. I trapped some of it into a flask for you to see:



    After ~10 min it condensed into clear, transparent droplets which is the Alkahest of tartar.

    I made the distillation train air tight and continued distillation for 1 hour. Here is what condensed on the neck of the system.



    Inside the foggy glass tube, you can see some black crude oil of tartar and a yellow water which contains the Alkahest of tartar with some oil mixed. More of this yellow oil condensed into the distillation arm. It needs to be separated to oil and alkahest by distillation.
    But the most incredible thing happened the next day, after leaving the distillation system as is for one night.



    Do you recognize what those needle crystals are? I think it is the Volatile salt of tartar. Probably, it distilled itself out of the mess with the help of the sun heat. I feel very lucky to see this happen. Here is a small crystall.



    It is transparent like glass when you clean it from the red-black oil. Upon heating it, it vaporises and disappears completely into thin air.
    Not bad for a first attempt. If you try it, keep the whole system air tight. Sir Kenelm Digby describes the process in very much detail and his words fit to my experience a lot. Book: "Chymical secrets 2" (page 76), by R.A.M.S. Another source is: "Real Alchemy", by Robert Bartlett, but he doesn't reveal the secret for the volatile tartar like sir Digby does.
    Has anyone made this Alkahest of tartar? What is his extraction power? Also, any idea what to do with the volatile salt welcome.

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    I would take a little bit of it and digest it in a sand bath together with some gold leaf and see if it dissolves. I've been told if you can dissolve some gold, this turns into oil, and this oil dissolves more gold, ensuing a chain reaction to dissolve all the gold into oil.

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    Hi,

    Nice work and nice photos !

    I put on Scribd two pdf files. One "Tartarus Magistery Manfred Junius" (that scribd is rejecting, ask me if you want it), and another in french "distillation alchimique du tartre".

    Also Tartarus Magistery Questions & Comments Alchemy

    Hope it helps.
    Last edited by Salazius; 03-03-2009 at 04:10 PM.
    Salazius

    http://dartigne.blogspot.com/

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    "Alchemy makes the World Weird, Wild, Wide, Wise, Wired, and Whoa."
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    I put on Scribd two pdf files. One "Tartarus Magistery Manfred Junius" (that scribd is rejecting, ask me if you want it), and another in french "distillation alchimique du tartre".

    Also Tartarus Magistery Questions & Comments Alchemy

    Hope it helps.
    Thank you Salazius, the documents you provided seem to be very helpful. My French are a bit rusty but I' ll surely get through the french document. The distillate collected by Jean Dupont-Davignon is a very big amount but I can see similarities with my testing experiment (layers of black and orange liquid).

    At the second book, it says that ammonium chloride forms on the neck. Could this volatile salt I encountered be ammonium chloride? I run some tests on it:
    1) This is a crystal I found inside the distillation arm in a pool of black oil:



    2) It is not soluble in alcohol, so I cleaned it (and unfortunately broke into pieces)



    3) I put a tiny part of it into HCl (~13%) and it fizzed continously till it disappeared!

    4) I' ve seen it turning into vapors when heated strongly

    My mind goes to ammonium carbonate.

    I would take a little bit of it and digest it in a sand bath together with some gold leaf and see if it dissolves.
    Thanks for the input Vlad, I'm definately going to try it with the salt remaining. From what I think, this crystal should get liquid at sand bath (90 degrees Celsius?) or else how will it dissolve gold? Hm, ammonium carbonate melting point is 58 C, good. Seems plausible.
    I would go by dissolving it in water and then attempt to extract gold. But meltung it seems far better.

    Thanks for the quick reply and help, I' ll keep you updated!

  5. #5
    My mind goes to ammonium carbonate.
    Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

    4) I' ve seen it turning into vapors when heated strongly
    Try to vaporize a small piece of the crystal. You should smell a slight odor of ammonia. On the by chance, does the crystal smell of ammonia at room temperature?

    Good experiment!

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    Try to vaporize a small piece of the crystal. You should smell a slight odor of ammonia.
    Nice idea. I heated some in a closed flask; upon opening it, I got the distinct smell of ammonia. Exactly as store bought ammonium carbonate smells upon heating.

    So in brief:
    - It smells of ammonia --> NH3
    - It fizzes in HCl --> CO2
    - It forms crystals --> one substance, not a mixture
    - It vaporises upon heating

    Highly probable that the "Volatile salt of Tartar" is Ammonium Carbonate.

    This reminds me of the processes on urine that produce a same volatile salt by sublimation. I should pound it with gold leaves as Vlad says or according to Salazius' posting http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=518.
    As far as I know, store bought ammonium carbonate does not dissolve gold, right? So when this salt (or NH4Cl) comes from a live mater (crude tartar, urine, ..) behaves differently, according to the old recipies.

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    I don't think that it will dissolves gold unfortunately.
    You'll maybe have to add a fixed salt to do this ?

    In the french document it is said that :
    You have to whiten the Feces/caput. And washing the potassium carbonate till whiteness.
    You have to distill several times the spiritus till pale yellow.
    The oil have a good properties for wounds, applied externally, 3 drops in 30 ml of a neutral cream for skin. Dynamical effect.

    Can maybe cause cancer if ingested internally (?)

    The white salt, calcined in oven become blueish (sulfur of the salt), after you can put them (salt, spirit and sulfur) together, creating an elixir or a stone. Put the oil on the salt, let to sun few days, and after you add a drop of spirit on it, the salt mix spirit and sulfur together. Let to sun digesting.

    After, put a good spiritus vini on it till it become a nice dark red, and let digesting for maybe 40 days.

    Only use in homeopathic doses, D2 or D3, dynamised, 3 drops a day.
    Good for all crystallizations in the body, heart and veins ...
    Salazius

    http://dartigne.blogspot.com/

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    "Alchemy makes the World Weird, Wild, Wide, Wise, Wired, and Whoa."
    S.H.D

  8. #8
    So in brief:
    - It smells of ammonia --> NH3
    - It fizzes in HCl --> CO2
    - It forms crystals --> one substance, not a mixture
    - It vaporises upon heating

    Highly probable that the "Volatile salt of Tartar" is Ammonium Carbonate.
    Nice, that confirms it for me!

    This reminds me of the processes on urine that produce a same volatile salt by sublimation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_carbonate

    Ammonium carbonate was historically obtained by the dry distillation of nitrogenous organic matter such as hair, horn, decomposed urine, etc.
    I should pound it with gold leaves as Vlad says ...
    As far as I know, store bought ammonium carbonate does not dissolve gold, right? So when this salt (or NH4Cl) comes from a live mater (crude tartar, urine, ..) behaves differently, according to the old recipies.
    Make some NH4Cl from this salt and then sublimate with gold leaf/calx. Sublimation must be done multiple times - take note of the evolution of the matter, and color changes that occur. You may give this a try with your sal volatile. These tests should yield interesting results.

    I can recommend another experiment. Make a concentrated solution of 1:1 sal volatile & sodium chloride in rain water, seal it shut, and digest it for a few weeks. Add some gold leaf/calx to this and see what happens.
    Last edited by Aleilius; 03-04-2009 at 06:01 PM.

  9. #9
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    The reason it should dissolve gold leaf is not because of the composition of the salt chemically but because the salt could contain gold oil from the matter it was gained from. This oil seems to be the radical solvent that dissolves gold slowly. So if there is some, with digestion it could dissolve gold.

  10. #10
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    Update:

    One of the crystals obtained from the tartar distillation, was put into a small flask together with some thin gold leaf and left into digestion (~80 degr Celsius) for a week. Upon opening the flask at the end of the week, the gold leaf was intact, the crystal had disappeared and there was a smell of ammonia.
    After a close examination, I observed that the gold was colored black at some specific points. I thought it was some kind of dirt from the crystal but I couldn't see similar dirt on the flask, it was only on the gold. I examined the black spots with a magnet and found them attracting to it. Every gold leaf that had some black spots, attracted to my magnet. I took special precautions to rule out any electrostatic effect.



    For example at this picture, you see my magnet wrapped in aluminium foil and the gold leaf attracted to it, sustaining its own weight. If the gold leaf was attracted due to electrostatic charge, upon touching the foil, the charge would be neutralised (both of them are conductors).
    I have successfully made the gold leaf move around on an aluminum foil by moving the magnet under the aluminum foil.
    The observations are hard to explain. Is this m-state Au or m-state that was contained inside the crystals of the volatile salt? Or maybe some oil of gold formed which evaporated leaving behind m-state Au.
    The road seems open now for new ideas. One easy experiment would be to try out the digestion again using commercial ammonium carbonate and check also the explanation of Vlad at his previous post.

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